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	<title>Comments on: Testing-testing: drug dosing based on SNPs?</title>
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	<link>http://pathtalk.org/archives/52</link>
	<description>is a weblog about pathology and laboratory medicine.</description>
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		<title>By: Ed Taylor</title>
		<link>http://pathtalk.org/archives/52/comment-page-1#comment-172</link>
		<dc:creator>Ed Taylor</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 27 May 2008 00:50:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://pathtalk.org/archives/52#comment-172</guid>
		<description>Thanks much, I suspected I was in the wrong forum but we are getting a bit desperate as this seems beyond the cardiologist&#039;s ability to control. We&#039;ve read all the inserts and websites and are hoping to raise the threshold above sensitivity levels with a constant input of supplemental K. I am trying NIH now. Again, thanks for your response.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks much, I suspected I was in the wrong forum but we are getting a bit desperate as this seems beyond the cardiologist&#8217;s ability to control. We&#8217;ve read all the inserts and websites and are hoping to raise the threshold above sensitivity levels with a constant input of supplemental K. I am trying NIH now. Again, thanks for your response.</p>
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		<title>By: Gretchen Galliano</title>
		<link>http://pathtalk.org/archives/52/comment-page-1#comment-171</link>
		<dc:creator>Gretchen Galliano</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 27 May 2008 00:19:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://pathtalk.org/archives/52#comment-171</guid>
		<description>I am sorry about the dosing issues with your wife and Coumadin.  This can be a stressful aspect about the drug. This website mainly focuses on pathology and laboratory medicine- that is we are discussing the aspects of laboratory testing and not treatment or dosing related issues.

  I can tell you that many things can alter the metabolism of coumadin such as diet and other medications.  Coumadin blocks the action of  enzymes which utilize vitamin  K in the vitamin K cycle which is responsible for generating clotting factors. The blood becomes &quot;thinner&quot; because there are less of these functional clotting factors due to the action of coumadin. 

Therefore, we must assume that vitamin K supplements will also interact with coumadin.   It is best for your wife to talk to her physician that is prescribing coumadin about any supplements before starting on them. 


There is a website I often use when I want to read about a medication- www.rxlist.com. It lists some technical details about the medicine but also gives information on interactions and warnings.  There is also the very dense package insert for the drug- which if you can make out the very tiny letters can give some additional information about the drug.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I am sorry about the dosing issues with your wife and Coumadin.  This can be a stressful aspect about the drug. This website mainly focuses on pathology and laboratory medicine- that is we are discussing the aspects of laboratory testing and not treatment or dosing related issues.</p>
<p>  I can tell you that many things can alter the metabolism of coumadin such as diet and other medications.  Coumadin blocks the action of  enzymes which utilize vitamin  K in the vitamin K cycle which is responsible for generating clotting factors. The blood becomes &#8220;thinner&#8221; because there are less of these functional clotting factors due to the action of coumadin. </p>
<p>Therefore, we must assume that vitamin K supplements will also interact with coumadin.   It is best for your wife to talk to her physician that is prescribing coumadin about any supplements before starting on them. </p>
<p>There is a website I often use when I want to read about a medication- <a href="http://www.rxlist.com" rel="nofollow">http://www.rxlist.com</a>. It lists some technical details about the medicine but also gives information on interactions and warnings.  There is also the very dense package insert for the drug- which if you can make out the very tiny letters can give some additional information about the drug.</p>
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		<title>By: Ed Taylor</title>
		<link>http://pathtalk.org/archives/52/comment-page-1#comment-170</link>
		<dc:creator>Ed Taylor</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 26 May 2008 19:34:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://pathtalk.org/archives/52#comment-170</guid>
		<description>My wife has a leaflet valve (St. Jude Medical) in the mitral position. Though she has been on coumadin for years she now seems to be more sensitive to dosage and bounces between extremes for INR. I am concerned about both the risk of stroke for high INR and threat to the valve for low INR. I heard that supplemental vitamin K has been used to elevate the sensitivity threshold. Can anyone direct me to further info on this?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>My wife has a leaflet valve (St. Jude Medical) in the mitral position. Though she has been on coumadin for years she now seems to be more sensitive to dosage and bounces between extremes for INR. I am concerned about both the risk of stroke for high INR and threat to the valve for low INR. I heard that supplemental vitamin K has been used to elevate the sensitivity threshold. Can anyone direct me to further info on this?</p>
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		<title>By: Gretchen Galliano</title>
		<link>http://pathtalk.org/archives/52/comment-page-1#comment-57</link>
		<dc:creator>Gretchen Galliano</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 06 Nov 2007 01:34:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://pathtalk.org/archives/52#comment-57</guid>
		<description>I just got some scoop 

results should be coming down the pipeline in the next few months including preliminary results from a pilot RCT for a genotype based dosing regimen vs clinically based dosing.

for now- a decrease in major events has not been shown but trials are being developed to study this</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I just got some scoop </p>
<p>results should be coming down the pipeline in the next few months including preliminary results from a pilot RCT for a genotype based dosing regimen vs clinically based dosing.</p>
<p>for now- a decrease in major events has not been shown but trials are being developed to study this</p>
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		<title>By: PathDoc15</title>
		<link>http://pathtalk.org/archives/52/comment-page-1#comment-55</link>
		<dc:creator>PathDoc15</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 06 Nov 2007 00:15:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://pathtalk.org/archives/52#comment-55</guid>
		<description>Somehow pathtalk ate the middle of my post?

Anyway, I think it looks good.

Time with INR&gt;3 as a surrogate - seems very sound.

All is well.

Now if I could just figure out the magic dosing regimen from the publication...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Somehow pathtalk ate the middle of my post?</p>
<p>Anyway, I think it looks good.</p>
<p>Time with INR&gt;3 as a surrogate &#8211; seems very sound.</p>
<p>All is well.</p>
<p>Now if I could just figure out the magic dosing regimen from the publication&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: PathDoc15</title>
		<link>http://pathtalk.org/archives/52/comment-page-1#comment-54</link>
		<dc:creator>PathDoc15</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 06 Nov 2007 00:10:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://pathtalk.org/archives/52#comment-54</guid>
		<description>Gretchin - Fascinating.  I hadn&#039;t seen this article yet.  I am much less the cranky skeptic today.  Nothing like a little data...

www.nature.com/clpt/journal/vaop/ncurrent/pdf/6100316a.pdf

To my knowledge this is the only prospective study yet to be published.  (Of course, I didn&#039;t see this one come out...  On my really fast read, I didn&#039;t see that they referenced any prospective studies)  It is a pretty strong publication.  Unfortunately, it was underpowered to determine if dosing based on genotype gives a decrease in MAJOR bleeding events (they only had one and it was secondary to angiodysplasia - as you point out).  I&#039;m not sure that the minor bleeds even reached significance -it certainly wasn&#039;t presented as such: 12% vs 3% out of 90 ish.  What&#039;s that?  3 vs 11?  Seems like it may be close

HOWEVER, it uses an INR &gt; 3 as a surrogate and the numbers look really good.  If an individual is dosed based on genotype, then they spend a lot less time with an INR &gt; 3 (and less time with an INR  3 and time to therapeutic INR are good indicators of propensity for major bleed - then all is well.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Gretchin &#8211; Fascinating.  I hadn&#8217;t seen this article yet.  I am much less the cranky skeptic today.  Nothing like a little data&#8230;</p>
<p><a href="http://www.nature.com/clpt/journal/vaop/ncurrent/pdf/6100316a.pdf" rel="nofollow">http://www.nature.com/clpt/journal/vaop/ncurrent/pdf/6100316a.pdf</a></p>
<p>To my knowledge this is the only prospective study yet to be published.  (Of course, I didn&#8217;t see this one come out&#8230;  On my really fast read, I didn&#8217;t see that they referenced any prospective studies)  It is a pretty strong publication.  Unfortunately, it was underpowered to determine if dosing based on genotype gives a decrease in MAJOR bleeding events (they only had one and it was secondary to angiodysplasia &#8211; as you point out).  I&#8217;m not sure that the minor bleeds even reached significance -it certainly wasn&#8217;t presented as such: 12% vs 3% out of 90 ish.  What&#8217;s that?  3 vs 11?  Seems like it may be close</p>
<p>HOWEVER, it uses an INR &gt; 3 as a surrogate and the numbers look really good.  If an individual is dosed based on genotype, then they spend a lot less time with an INR &gt; 3 (and less time with an INR  3 and time to therapeutic INR are good indicators of propensity for major bleed &#8211; then all is well.</p>
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		<title>By: Gretchen Galliano</title>
		<link>http://pathtalk.org/archives/52/comment-page-1#comment-49</link>
		<dc:creator>Gretchen Galliano</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 05 Nov 2007 18:00:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://pathtalk.org/archives/52#comment-49</guid>
		<description>Thanks for the comments!! and discussion!!! Interesting sites for both Pathdoc15 (love the QOD) and Dr. Murphy!! (Subscribed to your feed-looking forward to reading more!) 

A prospective trial to read on this topic is
Y Caraco, S Blotnik, and M Muskat Clinical and Pharmacology and Therapeutics Sep 12 2007- Pubmed still calls this epub ahead of print
if you have any issues let me know if I can help

They gave a control group the normal dosing algorithm and a control group a genotype based algorithm (for CYP2C9 only). Both groups had similar proportions of patients with a wild type (non-variant) allele and homozygous and heterozygous CYP2C9 variant alleles. 

The genotype based dosing was associated with a longer time to reach therapeutic INR but less time outside the therapeutic range ie more stable dose. 

During the study, there were 15 bleeding episodes (14 minor events, 1 major event) with a 12.2% incidence in the control group versus 3.2% incidence in the genotype based dosing group.  The major bleeding event occurred at an INR of 1.74 (nontherapeutic) and had angiodysplasia found in a colonoscopy which was felt to be the cause of the bleeding event. 

The three patients in the genotype based group who had an adverse event were wild type genotype (ie did not have the variant allele associated with bleeding). Seven of the control group (normal algorithm) carried a variant allele. Bleeding for control patients coincided with INR above the therapeutic range.

OK this was long winded but I was attempting to address some of PathDoc15&#039;s questions--the answer to them all are probably still &quot;?&quot;-this is still under study. Still need more information from trials- 
I am still looking for papers on this any other suggestions?

But what this trial seems to point to is that genotype based dosing does not prevent all bleeding episodes--but it does seem to help with achieving a stable INR in patients prone to instability and thus curtailing/controlling the presence of very high INR which is associated with bleeding.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for the comments!! and discussion!!! Interesting sites for both Pathdoc15 (love the QOD) and Dr. Murphy!! (Subscribed to your feed-looking forward to reading more!) </p>
<p>A prospective trial to read on this topic is<br />
Y Caraco, S Blotnik, and M Muskat Clinical and Pharmacology and Therapeutics Sep 12 2007- Pubmed still calls this epub ahead of print<br />
if you have any issues let me know if I can help</p>
<p>They gave a control group the normal dosing algorithm and a control group a genotype based algorithm (for CYP2C9 only). Both groups had similar proportions of patients with a wild type (non-variant) allele and homozygous and heterozygous CYP2C9 variant alleles. </p>
<p>The genotype based dosing was associated with a longer time to reach therapeutic INR but less time outside the therapeutic range ie more stable dose. </p>
<p>During the study, there were 15 bleeding episodes (14 minor events, 1 major event) with a 12.2% incidence in the control group versus 3.2% incidence in the genotype based dosing group.  The major bleeding event occurred at an INR of 1.74 (nontherapeutic) and had angiodysplasia found in a colonoscopy which was felt to be the cause of the bleeding event. </p>
<p>The three patients in the genotype based group who had an adverse event were wild type genotype (ie did not have the variant allele associated with bleeding). Seven of the control group (normal algorithm) carried a variant allele. Bleeding for control patients coincided with INR above the therapeutic range.</p>
<p>OK this was long winded but I was attempting to address some of PathDoc15&#8242;s questions&#8211;the answer to them all are probably still &#8220;?&#8221;-this is still under study. Still need more information from trials-<br />
I am still looking for papers on this any other suggestions?</p>
<p>But what this trial seems to point to is that genotype based dosing does not prevent all bleeding episodes&#8211;but it does seem to help with achieving a stable INR in patients prone to instability and thus curtailing/controlling the presence of very high INR which is associated with bleeding.</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Pack of Sensations &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Personalized Genetics: Weekend Summary Part Two</title>
		<link>http://pathtalk.org/archives/52/comment-page-1#comment-45</link>
		<dc:creator>Pack of Sensations &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Personalized Genetics: Weekend Summary Part Two</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 03 Nov 2007 19:59:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://pathtalk.org/archives/52#comment-45</guid>
		<description>[...] Testing-testing: drug dosing based on SNPs? (Pathtalk): A perfect explanation of FDA&#8217;s Warfarin story. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Testing-testing: drug dosing based on SNPs? (Pathtalk): A perfect explanation of FDA&rsquo;s Warfarin story. [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Steven Murphy MD</title>
		<link>http://pathtalk.org/archives/52/comment-page-1#comment-43</link>
		<dc:creator>Steven Murphy MD</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 03 Nov 2007 19:08:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://pathtalk.org/archives/52#comment-43</guid>
		<description>Great post. This is the first time I have seen your blog. Some great stuff here...Keep it up.
-Steve
www.thegenesherpa.blogspot.com
www.helixhealth.org/index.htm</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Great post. This is the first time I have seen your blog. Some great stuff here&#8230;Keep it up.<br />
-Steve<br />
<a href="http://www.thegenesherpa.blogspot.com" rel="nofollow">http://www.thegenesherpa.blogspot.com</a><br />
<a href="http://www.helixhealth.org/index.htm" rel="nofollow">http://www.helixhealth.org/index.htm</a></p>
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		<title>By: Personalized Genetics: Weekend Summary Part Two &#171; ScienceRoll</title>
		<link>http://pathtalk.org/archives/52/comment-page-1#comment-42</link>
		<dc:creator>Personalized Genetics: Weekend Summary Part Two &#171; ScienceRoll</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 03 Nov 2007 18:19:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://pathtalk.org/archives/52#comment-42</guid>
		<description>[...] Testing-testing: drug dosing based on SNPs? (Pathtalk): A perfect explanation of FDA&#8217;s Warfarin story. [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Testing-testing: drug dosing based on SNPs? (Pathtalk): A perfect explanation of FDA&#8217;s Warfarin story. [...]</p>
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